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  1. #1


    In this thread I will be listing my personal mugen goals and games in order to keep track of them and officially log them in as my full game projects and characters. You may ask questions in this thread regarding these full games and character projects if you like. I'm just using this to keep record and to better organize my goals and plans. These rosters and full games have been refined for years now and this is the result so far.

    Current WIP

    *I have roughly 5 projects some very close to completion while others on pause or barely being produced.

    The Avengers Game:
    __________________________________________________ _______________
    Captain America Ironman Thor The Hulk The Silver Surfer
    The Red Skull Ultron Super Skrull M.O.D.O.K. Thanos

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    The Adventures of Batman Game;
    __________________________________________________ _______________
    Batman The Joker
    Robin The Scarecrow
    Two-face The Penguin

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    __________________________________________________ _______________
    __________________________________________________ _______________

    __________________________________________________ _______________
    __________________________________________________ _______________

    __________________________________________________ _______________
    JOHNNY CAGE----------KANO
    REPTILE-------------QUAN CHI
    __________________________________________________ _______________

    *In the future I may do 1 more game. I'm leaning towards a remake of Star Wars : Masters of Teras Kasi :

    STAR WARS:???
    __________________________________________________ _______________
    __________________________________________________ _______________

    __________________________________________________ _______________
    Dragon Ball:???

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    Other side projects & character favors yet to be fulfilled by request.

    *Goku - Final
    *Black Tarantula



    *Armored Spider-Man TAS
    *Kang The Conquerer
    *Barron Zemo
    *The Emperor
    *Boba Fett
    *Han Solo
    *Sonya Blade
    *Shang Tsung
    *Skull Kid
    *Android 16

    *Link update



    *Green Ranger

    Note: Some characters are not mine but included for more fun and editing
    Last edited by A x ◿; 16th November 2016 at 18:49.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2016


    Godspeed to ya, sprites look f♥♥♥ amazing.
    I hope the characters are balanced, and more importantly, play well with consistent quality.
    Hope you do well on this mang.

  3. #3


    Quote Originally Posted by jejabu View Post
    Godspeed to ya, sprites look f♥♥♥ amazing.
    I hope the characters are balanced, and more importantly, play well with consistent quality.
    Hope you do well on this mang.
    You have no idea who i am do you? LOL

    I'm notorious for not having consistent quality, balance, and all that other stuff. I create in the moment only and I do as little work as possible because I hate it. The stuff I do here is more for just the fun of it and personal preference rather than making it for the serious gamers out there. My stuff isn't exactly joke characters but it's not flawless either. I don't care for reputation either in this hobby of mine because it is just that for me, a hobby, so please lower those high expectations and expect only fan art as it was intended.

    Critique it if you must with harsh honesty but please don't throw a tantrum when i don't care to change something for the better or if I'm okay with game breaking elements in these creations. I choose to do it differently, that's all and I'm happy with it even though almost everyone isn't fine with it.

    Moving on...

    Now that that is out of the way,

    Here is something I'm playing around with.


    It's sort of a combination of all of them out there with some details here and there borrowed into this one. I think it will generally be the same gameplay as the source material but with some tweaks here and there such as my fullgame's Super/Hyper BG splash fxs and hitsparks. I may add more in however such as an intro, a ship object in the distance perhaps?

    My idea is to include the ground portal as a means of contact and mobility/interaction for the character. I have no idea if that is canon to the comicbooks or if he has this ability but I like this better than the previous methods of fitting a giant boss type character onto a stage. I imagine however based on what i know that he could very well do something like this and I love to take creative liberties like this. I do know that Galactus is a powerful cosmic being with technological advances so I'm guessing he could pull off some kind of portal technology like this?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2016


    Oh, I see.
    Well, still doesn't change that your work looks good.
    Not to mention, your actually making things on your own, which is more than I can say for myself.
    Even of you don't take it seriously, what's more important is that you enjoy what you do.

    Yes, Galactus can make portals, though he more often just pop out of nowhere.
    If it helps you in the future, there hasn't been a hint (to my knowledge) of a limit to Galactus's powers.
    His backstory is that he was an ordinary human from a universe long past.
    His universe reached the end of it's life cycle, being was the last living thing in his dying universe, all the remaining energy was sucked into him, turning him into Galactus.
    With his universe dead, a new universe (universe of the current marvel) was born.

  5. #5


    Well then I'll continue, sorry if I went off topic there but I had to wrestle with this issue for 8 years now... :/

    Anyway, yeah, I read that backstory in that paperback marvel official guide to all the characters from A-Z. I read and have seen in the tas a spaceship to. I think I'ma incorporate a little of that somehow? I finished the first attack animation already. I'ma animate the portal thing separately and layer it all together so it isn't too static.

    I was also throwing around ideas for some super/hyper attacks. I was thinking of the standard hand beam attack. I think I saw something like that in MvC3 Galactus?

  6. #6


    Update: Okay not much else to convert left. I just have 2 animations left from the original work and from there I'll add some new stuff maybe? I'm currently considering a new attack where Galactus shoots down a head psychic pulse of rings, similar to professor X in the x-men tas intro towards the end of the title sequence. I plan on it working like Motherbrain super metroid boss battle ring attacks.


    Another idea is have galactus shoot finger beam streams like master hand from smash bros? Sorta trap the opponent in a cage of danger?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7


    The sprites are now complete and I can't think of any more moves to add on to this. Galactus has multiple attacks now increasing his moves to an overall 14 moves total!!!

    He has an intro/outro where he emerges/submerges from a portal. For the fullgame if I can manage it, I'll adjust every character's final interaction ending cutscene to a Galactus fate.

    An idea I have is to maybe Galactus makes some winners the new herald such as Wolverine, or have Apocalypse finish him off and take his place on his ship? Just some interesting twists and turns. Maybe some villains will die anyway for their ending as Galactus reveals he was toying around all along :P

    All that is left for this wip to have a release is the coding. My next wip might be Apocalypse and after that if I have it in me, Spider-man. Then I'll just need my sub-boss Kang and the fullgame will be complete and finished forever!

    The roster has been expanded to this overall and the game will be moved to mugen 1.1 because of the stubborn 1.0 incompatibility with winmugen, such as with Dr.Strange, Modok, and the others that insist on being 1.0 only :/


    So the top row is the overall roster for the complete game. Not all characters are mine or taken with permission but I've deemed them worthy enough to keep for the experience.

    Dormamu is not in the final roster or a part of this game officially but I'll add him in there anyway unofficially once the official release of that character is distributed by the original author.

    The sub-boss is Kang (Not sprited yet, placeholder in place) and the boss is Galactus.

    The pre-sub boss is Klaw (placeholder) but I've decided not to commit to another character as I need this project to be finished once and for all.

    The rest of the characters at the very last bottom are non-playable characters in the roster but surprise fights in the arcade playthrough that come up at random after every third roster battle and will be decided at random to enhance replayability.

    Daredevil and Adam Warlock are just sprites I like them to be full characters one day made in those bases. I don't care really for Adam or Blackwidow at all but I definitely want Daredevil in there for sure someday. Hopefully someone will make something similar enough out of the CapAmerica base.

    I would like to add more moves to wolverine similar to what i did with Ironman and Captain America. The rest of the characters are satisfactory enough for me to complete the fullgame experience with the exception of Apocalypse, which i never liked the way he came out in the end, no offense to the various contributors who finished him but I had less generic attacks planned for him and I need to complete him to my original vision BUT not at all to diminish the original/take its place. My fullgame is just for that, my personal fullgame and not the forum he belongs to (just to clarify).
    Last edited by A x ◿; 3rd June 2017 at 10:01.

  8. #8


    woah nice sprites, especially the CVS style DB chars.
    how many sprites/animations/moves per character ?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2017


    Looking good

  10. #10


    Quote Originally Posted by mulambo View Post
    woah nice sprites, especially the CVS style DB chars.
    how many sprites/animations/moves per character ?
    They all vary. The DBZ characters themselves, based on the one and only character I have finished, Goku, I have about ~18-23 attacks/maneauvers that result in attacks.

    Having said that I don't know if I have it in me to keep that number consistent for the entire fullgame roster. That's a lot to handle for me and I can't keep that up. I shouldn't have even done so many projects but I really wanted these fullgames growing up in my youth and I simply must realize them all before I retire the hobby in regards to creation, I would just like to play it after this exclusively after I am done making it.

    Also note that although I "steal" a lot and use other people's work, I mostly typically did all this by myself with little to no help and most of this content you see here was done by me alone, mostly. So it's very hard and has been for the past 8 years to do all of this mostly on my own and to do all the spriting, coding, ripping, editing, collecting, downloading, etc. (mostly)

    Back to the move/attack amounts,

    A lot of it will depend on numerous factors, my willingness to continue, the time and energy to do it, whether I can come up with satisfying moves/attacks to meet the standards (I can't always do it), and lastly, does the character need it and benefit from it or not.

    In some cases I even removed moves/attacks because I felt they were too long, complex, or just didn't fit well with me such as Thor or Apocalypse & Link(zelda).

    Some moves can't go with a character sometimes. I factor in a lot of things to decide that such as whether the attack is needed, how practical is it, is it too many or too little to be included, the way it's executed with or without creativity, and whether it works in the end, sometimes it can just fail just because it doesn't work out. Trial and error is a common practice for me.

    In regards to Link (Zelda) I had to ditch some moves such as a gear wheel attack or in red Skull a Giant Robot suit. They just didn't make the cut, though strangely the red skull giant robotsuit was salvaged by my former co-collaborators and released it in an update I didn't like myself but apparently other folks thought it was a good addition, I felt it was too clunky and big and too much for the characters attack collection.

    At the time I did that I tried to replicate the Dc Vs Marvel hyper/super chain attack where after one move finishes, a second one immediately begins and then a final third, finally; an example such as Thor and Wonderwoman, Ghost rider, etc. I had one version where I had Nazis on Dinosaurs come out of a portal for red skull's version that would follow up with red skull dawning golden cosmic cube armor using cosmic powers. Though in the end I felt that my marvel/DC characters didn't need to be exactly like the Dc vs Marvel project by scruffydragon and i decided to ditch the idea of a 3 super/hyper combo finishers. So in the end i ditched that all together and formed my own thing because at the time I was still figuring out what i personally wanted out of a marvel game.

    Originally I was doing a Dc vs Marvel game after I saw scruffydragon's take on the idea but then after a lot of thought and development I came to the conclusion that I really only liked Batman as far as DC is concerned for me and that the roster was too big to include all those personalities in my game so my dc vs marvel became an avengers game only. The reason I wanted my own Dc vs marvel game in the first place was because I didn't like scruffydragons version because it had little to none of the characters I would have wanted so i was inspired to do my own with bases I preferred for characters.

    Though in the end the Dc side was lackluster and the only good characters were mostly coming out of Superman for me so the justice league failed overall for me and so the game became just a marvel only game. The batman came way later and turned into its own game of only batman and only based on tas featuring only my favorite picks for that project. Originally that wasn't supposed to be a fullgame itself, I just liked a few characters from batman but eventually I made 1-2 many and then just decided, well I went this far, might as well complete the rest and slap together something last minute which is how the screenpack and stages came to be that really solidified the fullgame project.

    To reminisce, a certain former forum member felt threatened by the idea of me doing my own batman game LOL I assured him before that time that I had no interest and it was true at the time but now I have to imagine since I unfortunately now did commit to it that he must be losing his mind :P If he's reading this, I mean't no fowl and this isn't to hurt your fullgame of batman or whatever or to even compete with your project. I just really prefer batman tas so it sorta just became a necessity, especially since I apparently did too much to turn back now. Believe me, I wish i could stop and have saved myself the pain of doing another fullgame project....

    Star Wars,

    The star wars characters are goinjg to be very limited in attacks/moves since I am basing it on Master of Teras Kasi PSX-1 3D fighter.

    The pokemon fullgame is a special case, the pokemon generally have only 4 attacks as based on the original nintendo games, HOWEVER, some pokemon have more than just the four because I needed them to do some extra stuff I really wanted to include as well and I felt that they should be exceptional.

    This and another decision contradicts my original plan/style to in that in addition to just the four attacks, if the attack is held and released in some of the pokemon, it can react as another similar real in game attack. For instance Pikachu does thunderbolt by default but if held and then released the same attack now attacks with thunderbolt but with mobility thrust, turning that attack to pikachu's in anime move, Volt-tackle. So for some P{okemon, the 4 only moves can actually be doubled to 8 moves total.

    Another aspect that breaks my original format for the roster is that all pokemon indeed have a 5th move for finally purposes that mirror modern arcade fighers, a.k.a. super/hyper attacks. So rather than 4, it's actually ends up being 5 as a base. So my pokemon game is now not at all like pokemon by nintendo but has become a mixture of MvC, Pokemon by Nintendo, anime influences, and a custom game mechanic exclusive to this one only such as 1 round only battles to mirror the anime/nintendo games.

    My mortal kombat game is also unique, it is a mixture between killer instincts and mortal kombat. The fighters have the mortal kombat fight style but it has been combined with killer instincts combo system where specials and hit chains are performed by charing back and then forward with an attack, yet the mortal kombat aspects are intact, mostly just the sweeps that the games are famous for, close range attacks, high and low punches that the style shares between all characters. So This is a fixed number for the entire roster to have. All characters will have the exact same number of attacks/moves and so far have maintained all of that. Mortal kombat after-realm (my MK game) is probably the only balanced game I have with the exceptions of infinites.

    The super Smash fighters fullgame I have in development is completely unbalanced in every way because all fighters are unique and are more based on their original games rather than smash bros. I got a lot of disappointment from that because for some reason whenever i did a nintendo wip everyone just assumed it would be exactly like Smash Bros but that was never my intent but I still ended up with the backlash and still to this day :P


    My Link from Zelda was panned by critics because I decided to go original/custom on it rather than SMB Melee. I can see why since it looked a lot like it during its development but I was just making a mugen character more than a zelda character by nintendo.

    The smash fighters fullgame I have here wasn't actually originally a fullgame. It just so happened that I made too many Nintendo characters that at this point I basically had to make a full game but it's not really mean't to be, it was just packaged that way at the last minute. A bunch of stages were created in a matter of hours as well as the screenpack just to organize it together so it wouldn't get mixed with my other games, it just had to become its own game. I didn't want to mix my mario with my Batman. Yuck!!! XC

    So hopefully that clarifies everything for you in regards to your question.

  11. #11


    wow, long comment, I usually keep things simple, that's how you get it done.
    actually I thought there are too many characters, but if you can complete them, you will see nobody telling you "this character lacks of moves".
    what I suggest you is to gather the authors, tell them your ideas and start being a director instead of a maker. not because you're not good as a maker, but probably because you're more focused on big projects rather than small detailing. I also think you like briefing, so if you find the right creators to make a well-directed project, at least you will manage them properly instead of seeing so many characters incomplete.

    if you're going to do it all on your own... well you have to make a selection, if you feel you can't complete them all. you're human, lol.

    a certain former forum member felt threatened by the idea of me doing my own batman game
    well actually I hate American super heroes done in the style of Japanese videogames, so whatever it is (Batman, Superman, Crapman, etc... I just think that Capcom SFA3 style don't fit those characters).
    I also don't like the lack of originality, the overproportioned amount of edits/frankensprites. It pisses me off when people tend to idolize creators who have no originality, rippers, etc. But... if people like this kind of stuff, who am I to judge?

  12. #12


    You know when I started doing mugen I heard from the very beginning no one will make you a character and if you want one you have to do it yourself. So it would be great if someone else could do all the work for me while I sit back in a directors chair, a team would be awesome and I have tried in the past but numerous issues always happened. For instance a team was formed (for Mortal Kombat After-Realm) with capable spriters and coders but in the end no one really finished anything and everyone practically left the project and I was the director and I was even also unrestrictive to, allowing them to make their own stuff rather than my stuff but even then they left and quit. I only managed to get a few contributions by 2 creators that I owe a lot to for helping me complete my vision.

    Another instance was when I worked instead as a consultant/collaborator on a wip I started, Apocalypse. The project started well enough and I was happy that the team was getting the basics done really well but some ideas they refused to implement. So because of creative differences a team effort never really got me exactly what I wanted. The character ended up with a lot of bland generic attacks and little creativity for the most part. So even team efforts failed me.

    A similar situation happened with MODOK where a team did accomplish a fantastic fighter! Though when it went through a process of being refined and fixed from bugs a lot of the moves and attacks were changed from the original. They weren't bad changes and some were really great but the stuff that went missing was really good and I needed it for the character. So again team projects although do relieve me of the workload I never get what i truly want unless I do it myself.

    So you see the director idea hasn't worked for me 100% successfully; maybe like ~85%. :P Also just to note for anyone reading this involved in these past works, I appreciate everything and i am not ungrateful, I just had a different vision/idea for it, that's all and for me to edit some of that is nothing personal or meant to replace your hard work and your original work.

    @the second comment,

    Yeah creator egos have always been an issue but I think we all have our own to deal with especially LOL I try not to have one and I remind myself not to think of myself as being better than other new creators and etc. If anything we're all really talented just to be able to code a character or finish an entire animation, that's a feat that required skill, no matter how poorly or how professional it was done; it took hours!!! XC

    It's unfortunate that elitism exists in the community and the amount of pride there is, is sickening. It results when creators are idolized for their works, the fame always goes to our heads but unfortunately we all can't resist it and some of us become elitist/prideful to a point where if anyone else emerges in fame they immediately become a threat to you that must be destroyed.

    But that idea is just silly, other creators don't hurt your work, if anything, downloaders like different versions of a character so why can't there be 2 or even 7 Batmans. So what if yours isn't as popular anymore, someone still likes it enough to have played it and even then you yourself, as the creator, will always prefer it over the others so why get upset.

    I've seen this type of forum drama and I have shamefully committed it myself to in the past, much to my regret. This is why I hate elitism, it goes to your head and ruins mugen for everyone. This is why I am against permission and crediting because it contributes to the problem all artist face. It makes creators prideful, selfish, hateful, envious, and bitter. I include myself with the likes of all of them out there such as Loganir, Acey, bdc, verz, magus, Arkady, O Ilusionista, balthazar, C.v.s The Abstract, cybaster, Laxxe, logansam, napoelonjonamite/ThatIdahoGuy, Ricepigeon, dj hannibal, theFuTuR3, T.O.P.S., etc. the list goes on (you know who you are*practically everyone*), being a creator is a slippery slope where you can easily become what you hate. I try not to get mad at them because we're all the same and if anything I pity us all collectively and I wish we could all quit this lousy hobby and make peace instead but unfortunately we are all helplessly addicted to it and the pride kills us, even if we try to repress it/change it...

    This is the problem with art/artist in general. It's the price of fame, why artist always fight in media and get drama/scandals and receive the backlash that we do.

    But I look forward to the day when i can quit making mugen and just play my games and forget about the community and its problems and the drama and just do what I wanted to do from the start, just play a fun game. Just as soon as I finish these fullgames, I'll be free and I can stop hurting my brothers who are suffering the same as me, who have also wasted their time like me when we could have been enjoying a sunset instead we were all in front of a computer drawing nonsense...
    Last edited by A x ◿; 3rd June 2017 at 21:56.

  13. #13


    Shifting focus again on Apocalypse this time. I'm remixing what was done before into this new version. This version of Apocalypse will have more traditional fighting attacks. This will be the dumbed down version with less stuff and I wanna take off the generic specials and put back some of my creative ones I drew up a long time ago. Unfortunately that work was lost and I don't really remember that stuff so I'll have to brainstorm again and take the time to remake that stuff.

    The reason i'm remaking this wip is that I wasn't really happy with the final product from its first release. A lot of the final stuff sorta looked awful and stiff. Also it was overloaded with unnecessary stuff like pointless intros, color (uninspired) palletes, non-mvc fxs, an overuse of lasers (which turned into a lack of diversity), and stuff of that nature.

    New punch and old but with added frames and touch ups.

    After this quick re-release I'll go to wolverine and then my Avengers game should be practically finished. Once the roster is complete I'll touch up and fix a bunch of crap and release the full game and then I can cross it off my list! Finally!!

  14. #14


    it all depends on the amount of work and ambition.
    if you plan to make a 40 characters roster game... well of course people will get demotivated and won't do anything but leaving things as they are.
    I'm talking about standards, here. Capcom style is high standard, despite being emulated very well, it takes a lot of time even frankespriting/editing.
    I just suggest you to focus on a character at a time, without jumping to another, finish it up THEN start the new one. One brick at a time, you won't even notice how far you went if you go 1by1 with development of characters. This is also useful because, if you plan to make a full game, there must some standards for all characters. You finish one character then use the same character as a clone, change his sprites/fix his animations and you have an equal character BUT with his own moves and data.

    why can't there be 2 or even 7 Batmans
    lol, because there would be 2 or even 7 Gotham cities? j/k

  15. #15


    I understand where you are coming from and you're not the first person to tell me this. Firstly, in the past when people left, it wasn't 40-ish, the number was very reasonable; we're talking 1 or 2. They quit because apparently not everyone has it in them to start something and finish it all the way through hence why I hate to rely on others or even team up. Now my works are mostly incomplete and I understand the frustration people are feeling when they play my works but even at incomplete levels I always get it around 90% finished which imo isn't bad at all and a lot more than the ones that started something and didn't ever even release it. I'm also aware of the kind of creators that work on something for like 1-2 years and then release something and to that I say good that they took their time with it and worked out all the kinks BUT 1-2 YEARS!!!! Typically those guys aren't doing fullgames so they only have to worry about 1 character where as I have to do an entire roster. Not saying anyone here is wrong but just saying I have to do it this way and just for the record, I don't mind little imperfections at all; it's the downloaders that get bothered by that LOL, well the perfectionist who see a little here and there and raise hell about it.

    In case I didn't make this clear before, I don't like making mugen, I prefer to play it, I just make it because I don't have it, the mugen I want is missing and so I have to make it but I don't care for it like some others who are overly passionate about it. This attitude tends to offend a lot of my viewers, especially creators, I don't know why, I don't think my work affects their work or maybe they wanted more out of me but again I'm doing this for different reasons.

    I don't care at all for my reputation either as a creator though I just wish they would quit whining about it, that's all. I'm not out here to make a name for myself, I purposely leave my name off of things. That is how much I don't care for the community standards and so called rules. People are frustrated because I don't fit any category and they don't know what to make of me, I'm not a leecher but then I am, I'm not a creator, but then I am, I'm not this but then i am, etc.

    I create the way i do because of necessity and it works best this way and I have no problem with it. It's everyone else that has a problem with it. I don't like creating period but when I do I create a lot at once and fast and a little sloppy but it doesn't bother me. I don't know what else to say...

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2017


    Wow you are amazing! I'm looking forward to the Pokemon game and a Magikarp character (if you'll ever make one lmao)

    "GAO! GAO! GAOOO!"
    -Saber Lion, King of the Wild

  17. #17


    Quote Originally Posted by leycrimsonriver View Post
    Wow you are amazing! I'm looking forward to the Pokemon game and a Magikarp character (if you'll ever make one lmao)

    Thank you!

    Yeah I was thinking of doing a magikarp as an overpowered joke character. I was thinking of making it the only level 100 character with every move being super effective! LOL

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2017


    Quote Originally Posted by A x ◿ View Post

    Thank you!

    Yeah I was thinking of doing a magikarp as an overpowered joke character. I was thinking of making it the only level 100 character with every move being super effective! LOL
    That would be funny just don't make it like a OHKO character, at least give the weaklings a chance

    "GAO! GAO! GAOOO!"
    -Saber Lion, King of the Wild

  19. #19


    Oh yeah, I agree. It's no fun without a pathetic last stand against a losing battle. I might give Magikarp like double the lifebar of a normal pokemon and have it use moves like psychic, Thunder, etc. and just for the hell of it, splash as his super/hyper/final attack XD

    Maybe it'll do immense damage for no reason or it won't do anything at all, whichever is funnier.... :P Maybe have it do both like give it a 10% chance of accuracy XD

    Also if I ever do ending storyboards I could maybe make an ending for the character where magikarp is the new Giovanni leader of Team-Rocket or something and have him splash on Giovanni's throne like seat while everyone salutes magikarp!

  20. #20


    I don't like making mugen, I prefer to play it
    right the opposite for me, I only like to play MUGEN for testing purposes.
    If creators hate you, it depends on what you did to them and their creations: if you steal their work, they will hate you for sure. But at least you don't sell their stuff (or else they would probably more than just hating you, lol).
    Don't worry about "I don't fit" thing. People don't actually care. Most MUGEN users want just to add more characters to the roster, probably they love the image of their roster more than playing with it, but this is something I can't really understand or be sure of. Just my spider-sense tingling, lol.
    Also creator can *hate* each other, some hate for envy (everybody envies), some for stupid reasons, some for past traumas, some because they're just stupid. Keeping a hate-free attitude is harder than it seems, lol. Damn ego.

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